Interview with Dr. Seyed Mostafa Azmayesh, expert in Islamic law and religious sciences: “This despotic dark system, which is acting under the name of Islam, is no longer defendable and the thinkers, the politicians of the western countries must open their eyes and see the reality of the things.

It is very important because the time is desperately short. These persons who hide their goals behind the name of Islam have an agenda and in front of them the general policy of the western countries is zero. We cannot identify a strategic policy in front of the development of fanaticism under the name of religious activities in the western countries and it is really very dangerous and the danger is knocking at the door of the coming generations in the western countries.”

mehriran.de: Besides poverty, famine, natural catastrophes and various forms of violence the world is shaken by a multitude of other little problems. In the same time some political leaders create the impression that we are in the middle of an ideological battle about the management of the world. Following this some leaders claim Islam to be a huge threat and others hold that Islam would be the best solution for the world. What do these leaders talk about when they use the term of Islam?
Islam – the teachings of prophet Muhammad in the frame of the Koran
Dr. Azmayesh: For me Islam is composed of the teachings of prophet Muhammad in the frame of the Koran and the verses of the Koran. Apart of this there is a multitude of personal interpretations of different personalities who lived around prophet Muhammad in the time of apparition of Islam and later personalities of successing periods with their own interpretations of the verses of the Koran based on the Revajat, sayings, attributed to prophet Muhammad and to other saints like the twelve Imams. The problem with the words attributed to the Prophet and to the saints is that there is any unanimity in opinion. There are certain sayings, which are accepted by some fractions of the Muslim community and absolutely rejected by other parts of the community and there are sayings, which are accepted by yet other parts of the community and not by others. It is not the case for the verses of the Koran. The whole Muslim community accepts the verses of the Koran and we should think of the reason for this.
The peculiarities of perception and the divergence of interpretations
What is the difference between a verse of the Koran and a saying attributed to the prophet Muhammad or another saint?
Take the example of a lecturer who goes to an auditorium in which for example there are 400 persons. Each one of the 400 persons has a voice recorder and from the beginning until the end of the lecture each one of the present people records exactly the words of the speaker. In the end you have 400 speeches in the hand of 400 persons who recorded the same speech. One could take a recorder and listen to the recorded words and find exactly the same content as in the 399 other recorders. But if you ask anybody who was in this gathering to explain to you what the content of this speech was, different listeners will give diverging views.
The reason is that the brain doesn’t work like a recording system. The brain has its own interpretations basing on personal experiences and peculiarities. When you listen to something, you record it in the sense of your own interpretations. You are changing it, you are manipulating it, you are imposing your influence on it and the influence of the brain to the things that you are memorizing depends to what is in the backside of your mind in your subconscious. And because the subconscious of the personalities are different from each other they understand differently from each other the same speech. Even if they record with a recorder in the end there will be unanimity nevertheless. This is the difference between the function of the brain and the function of a recording device.
When prophet Muhammad was talking and guiding people by the verses of the Koran, people understood according to the backside of their minds, but when prophet Muhammad revealed the verses of the Koran, the listeners were forced to learn as the parrots, it means exactly like a recorder: to reproduce the exact structure of the sentences.
His followers listened to prophet Muhammad and they repeated thousands of times to memorize it. It is exactly what is happening today in the Madrasas. The goal of this is to make the student a Hafez. Hafez is a person who knows the Koran by heart. He goes to a particular school and he starts to learn verse by verse the whole Koran. The teacher teaches him one verse and the student starts to repeat that verse to learn it by heart like a parrot and afterwards he continues with another verse.
It is because of this that the brain cannot interfere. The brain cannot enter its own interpretation when it is working as a parrot. It is because of this fact that all Muslims are unanimous about the integrity of the Koran and all of its verses. On the contrary there are a lot of divergences about the sayings attributed to prophet Muhammad and other saints. It is because of this fact that we are distinguishing between the authenticity of the verses of the Koran and their difference to the sayings attributed to the saints. The whole community does not accept the sayings. The whole community accepts the verses. For this reason we must go back to the frame of the Koran in order to know Islam.
The divergences between Muslims started through the interpretation of the verses of the Koran.
Approval and rejection
In the time of prophet Muhammad there were many people who came to see him. Certain people were gnostic seekers and they regarded Muhammad as a divine guide. They came by themselves to Muhammad to be guided by him.
But there was another category of people like the philosophers who came to Prophet Muhammad in order to argue with him. They started to have long debates with him and finally a part of them accepted the validity of the mission of Muhammad and they accepted to be converted to the path of Muhammad.
Yet there was another category of people who didn’t accept at all what Muhammad was talking about and they rested in their ignorance. They rejected Muhammad. Finally there were other people who didn’t accept the mission of Muhammad as a divine prophet but in the end they were forced to convert to Islam when Muhammad conquered Mecca in the end of his mission. There were a lot of different categories of people as I explained. The interpretations of the Koran verses through persons from these different categories were different from each other. They all knew perfectly well that they were talking about the verses of the Koran. When they were reading the verses of the Koran it was unanimity between them. But when they wanted to discus the meaning of the verses of the Koran, there was a huge divergence between them because everybody liked to interpret the meaning of a sentence and to understand that sentence, as he liked. This already happened in the time of Muhammad himself.
For example the prophet Muhammad brought one verse and there were different interpretations of the same verse already in the time of his lifetime and there were several people who didn’t accept the interpretations of the founder of Islam when he was still alive. And they argued with him. It is written in the Koran that God and his Prophet know better the meaning of the verses but those people didn’t accept and persisted on their position and wouldn’t change their mind about the interpretation of those verses.
Clear verses and ambiguous verses
The Koran itself divides its verses in two categories: the clear verses, which are named Muqamaat and the ambiguous verses, which are named Motteshabehat. It is written in the Koran that the interpretation of the verses from the category of Motteshabehat is only known to God and to the people who achieved some deeper understanding of science and knowledge, it means very advanced seekers. Thus we see that even when we go back to the Koran and we leave aside the sayings and we take the Koran in order to find a solid basement from which we can start an investigation about the real Islam, we see that in that point there are a lot of different opinions and a lot of diversity of opinion and understanding and a lot of confrontation and opposition of opinions. People who didn’t accept the explanations of prophet Muhammad in his lifetime and were continuously looking for different pretexts in order to criticise prophet Muhammad were named Monaferin, the hypocrite persons, who accepted to be converted to Islam and to follow prophet Muhammad by their tongue but in the backside of their minds didn’t believe at all to Muhammad. Nevertheless they integrated into the system of Islam in order to find the weak points of Islam and to use it in order to channelize the energy of this new community in their own benefit. When they joined the camp of Muhammad in the beginning they resisted in front of Muhammad in order to break down Islam and the Muslim community and prophet Muhammad. They imposed 23 years of military confrontation fighting Muhammad. But finally they were forced to accept because they lost all of the battles against Muhammad and finally converted to Islam. And from that moment they started to make a new plan in order to regain their lost position now under the name of Islam and on behalf of the leaders of Islam. In fact there were two categories of adversaries, those who used the Koran to create a diversion and those who built Mosques. Abu Sufian and his son Muawiyah, who later became caliph, were active in the field of interpreting the Koran. Especially Muawiyah used his interpretation of the Koran against Ali, the cousin of Mohammad. A group of 12 to 15 persons around Sa’labeh ibn Hateb, Mottab ibn Ghoshayr and Nabtal ibn Al Harith sticked to building a mosque for their own intentions.
Building mosques as a Trojan horse tactic
The weakest point in their eyes were the gatherings of Muslim people in the frame of praying inside of the worshipping places, which were named mosques. In the Koran it is written that idolatry – worshipping idols – is bad and the idols should be destroyed and people should worship only one god and build up mosques in order to worship one god. So these hypocrite people told themselves that it is the best opportunity for them to build a mosque in order to gather as many Muslims inside of the mosques as possible and to become the Imam of those Muslims in those mosques and to give their own interpretation of the verses of the Koran and to bring the energy of those people in a deviation side. It happened like this. They started in the following way. They claimed to have finished with idolatry and to have become monotheists. They claimed that they were going to destroy the idol worshipping places by themselves and build up mosques instead. They invited Muslim people according to the Koran to go and give them a hand and bring money in order to build the most beautiful mosques for Islam. In Medina they did and they made a very very beautiful mosque, a very big mosque. And they invited prophet Muhammad to come and to inaugurate the mosque. Prophet Muhammad accepted because he thought even if those persons were not good persons who had built the mosque finally he was leading them to stop worshipping the idols and they were building mosques instead. Muhammad felt himself forced to go and inaugurate the mosque and to pray for the first time in that mosque. But in the middle of the way Gabriel appeared to him and stopped prophet Muhammad. He revealed to him that the intention of those people was not proper and it was not a good mosque that they had built. They had built that mosque in order to make a separation between Muslims and not for worshipping God. Those hypocrite people were the opportunists and it was an opportunity for them to channelize the energy of the Muslim in their own interest. Gabriel appealed to Muhammad to go there and destroy that mosque and never make any contact with the people who were misusing the verses of the Koran and misusing the mosque and the energy of the Muslim community. And even if one of them passed away Mohammad should not go to his burial and not pray for his soul. This is one of the very strict verses of the Koran.
So you see how from the beginning even people who knew the whole Koran verse by verse by heart they had their own interpretation of Islam. Making the mosque at the beginning was not really something to respect Islam. It was not the sign of a real worshipping act or a real Islamic act. There were many people who did the mosque for other purposes for other reasons. It is because of this that the Koran would like to warn the intelligent persons to think about what is the real purpose, the real reason behind the mind of the people who are talking about Islam and who pretend to like to develop Islam by building mosques. This is a very very serious warning from the Koran itself.
The two chapters of Sharia law nowadays
mehriran.de: Some of the leaders of the Eastern world claim that Islamic law must be imposed to all the societies. They find Sharia should be the right law in each country and the right frame of each law. About what exactly do they talk when they mention Sharia?
Dr. Azmayesh: We have a verse in the Koran, which says: ‘washaraham menaddim nem oh was sabehin nomah’. It is about Shariat. Shariat means the law. It is the legislative power. The difference between the ordinary law and the divine law is that the founder of the Shariat according to the holy text is God via Gabriel. But this divine law is divided in two categories, in two chapters. One chapter regards the relationship between each individual and his creator, it regards all of the prayers and the methods of praying, how an individual can approach more and more his creator. So this is the most important part of the Shariat, which is the basement, which is the foundation of each religion.
And there is a second chapter, which regards the relationship between the individuals of the same religion in a society. This part of Shariat is named Fiqr. Thus there are the canonical laws and the religious laws. The part of Shariat, which is named Fiqr is submitted to the evolution of the society. Human society is an alive being, which in consequence is in continuous development. For this reason the Mojtahed, the religious jurists, who know the Koran according to their own interpretations, take the legislative power in their hand in order to make new laws, according to the spirit and to the text of the written verses of the Koran. These new laws concern the new events and the new phenomenon in the society, which didn’t exist in the time of prophet Muhammad. This part of Shariat is the evolving part. It is in evolution with the development of the society, it is not stable, it is flexible and in evolution and it is according to the opinion of the religious jurists.
But it is certain that in the world in which we are living in the 21.century the branches of knowledge and science and the evolution of the society is out of understanding and knowledge of one jurist, of one intellectual person or one religious person.
Thus it is necessary that in each branch of knowledge of human society the experts give their opinion in order to legislate the new laws and the religious jurist consultants look at that law and tell if it is in concordance with the Koran or not.
Nowadays the religious people cannot take the power of legislation in their hand in order to make the laws by themselves! For example concerning subjects like cloning, like in vitro fertilisation, etc.
With the development of the genetic technology etc. this is at hand. This technology didn’t exist in the time of Prophet Muhammad. For this we cannot find the law concerning this new branch of the society in the Koran. It is the work of experts in the matter to do and to make the laws and afterwards the jurist consultants can give the religious view on those laws.
We are in a new society in which the religious law, the Shariat, is going to be limited only to the relationship between mankind and his creator.
The affair of the society is up to the population. The people must take it in their hand to make the new laws and the position of the knowledgeable persons about their religion is to watch those laws – and not to grab this power for making the laws! It is because of this that people who are talking about the religious society and about bringing the society under the domination of the Shariat according to their own interpretation, are retrograde people who would like to stop the evolution of the society and bring it back to the model of the time of prophet Muhammad. They are reactionary people and retrograde who stop the development of the society  – and it is not in concordance with the soul of the Koran.
The fanatic and the European politicians
mehriran.de: You were referring to the very fanatic people who claim to be Muslims. How do you think the Europeans can help to stop all these fanatic movements who claim to work under the flag of Islam to become more powerful and spread their interpretation?
Dr. Azmayesh: I think the thinkers of the western civilisation must clarify their mind about the spiritual stream, which is based on the soul of the revelation – on the soul of the Koran – and the fanatic persons who claim to be the defender of Islam. It is necessary not to take them as the representatives of the Muslim community. Debates between the freethinking Muslim people who are talking about the spiritual path of the Koran and the fanatic persons should be organised in order to see what the weight of each side of this debate is. Instead of trying to stop the development of Islam in the western countries it is crucial not to put on the throne of attention the fanaticism that hides itself behind the name of Islam and the fanatic people who are talking on behalf of the Muslim community. It is the biggest mistake of politicians and sociologists who refuse to go to the depths of the meaning of Islam. The appeal of prophet Muhammad was based on chivalry – to be a knight and to be a poor person, poor person in a spiritual way as the prophet Moses is described in the Koran. He often went to his corner to make spiritual exercises for developing his spirit and his soul and in the end he stated “oh my creator I am a poor person in front of the immense ocean of your kindness and clemency.”
The dark despotic system in Iran under the mask of Islam and the danger for Europe
mehriran.de: “Still we think that in Europe political leaders don’t seem to see the danger of the tactics of these Lords of hate. Can you define what the dangers are for the whole civilization, if this Trojan horse tactics will be successful?”
Dr. Azmayesh: Yes. In the time of the Shah Iran was developing towards the western model and was about to create a civilisation based on modernity and modernisation of the country. Nobody was able in that time to imagine that a religious revolution might occur. But the religious revolution happened and each aspect of human rights and each aspect of the values of the civilisation was violated and totally destroyed by the revolutionary persons. In the time of Shah those people gave to themselves and to their activities the legitimacy to talk on behalf of Islam and to appeal the whole society to be respectful to the Koran but in the backside of their minds they have had a plan to destroy the system of the Shah and to bring a new system, the religious system, and to do everything on behalf of Islam, to violate the human rights by the different manners and to take position behind the name of Islam and to legitimize the violation of human rights under the name of Islam.
By this event you see now that five million Iranian left their country and everything behind them and went out of Iran and more people are waiting for their chance to go out of Iran and to live in Canada or in Australia or in other countries, so far from Iran. The reason for this is the creation of a despotic, a very dark despotic system, which has nothing to do with Islam, under the name of Islam. We are witness that the same event is going to happen in the different European countries as well. The dark minded leaders are hiding their real agenda behind the curtain of Islam and the religious activities but in reality they would like to take the political power in their hands and immediately apply the despotism under the name of Islam and Shariat and to impose to the women the worst things, to cut the rights of the women and to violate the human rights by the pretext of applying the law of Islam and stoning people and cutting the hands and the feet of the people, hanging people and abusing people etc. etc. It is what is happening in Iran of today according to all of the people who did this revolution like Mir Hossein Mussavi, like Mehdi Karroubi, like Hashemi Rafsandjani and many more.
This despotic dark system, which is acting under the name of Islam, is no longer defendable and the thinkers, the politicians of the western countries must open their eyes and see the reality of the things. It is very important because the time is desperately short. These persons who hide their goals behind the name of Islam have an agenda and in front of them the general policy of the western countries is zero. We cannot identify a strategic policy in front of the development of fanaticism under the name of religious activities in the western countries and it is really very dangerous and the danger is knocking at the door of the coming generations in the western countries.
The depths of the revelation of the Koran
mehriran.de: In the beginning you were telling us about another interpretation of Islam. Is there a chance of an alternative compared to the dangers that you were describing and what is the role of this Islam you described in the beginning?
Dr. Azmayesh: The real alternative is to go back to the teachings of the Koran according to prophet Muhammad himself and not to fanatic interpretations of the verses of the Koran and especially of the Motteshahbehat of the Koran. There we see that it is only the spiritual stream. We see that prophet Muhammad like other prophets before him had the mission from god to develop the human ethic of mankind and to teach them to be more respectful towards the rights of others and to be kind and clement and to be a knight who helps the poor persons and focus on developing the relationship between their soul and their creator – between their heart and their creator.
This is the meaning of the depths of the revelation of the Koran and the most important part of the Meccan verses of the Koran, which is the first part of the Koran when prophet Muhammad was living in Mecca before he went to Medina. So this is the foundation of Islam, this is spirituality and this flame of spiritual stream was always alive between the hand of the flamebearer who were the gnostic people, the real Muslim who were praying to god only because of love for god who were respectful to the beauty because of the love to the beauty. People like Rumi, like Hafez, like Sa’adi like all of Muslim mystics were the carrier of Islam of a very kind and friendly and tolerant Islam, which existed before and some exist now. The tradition of their Islam is the best way to give the best example to the western civilisation for creating a new civilisation based on modernity and spirituality with each other.
Following the genuine path of Rumi and Hafez
mehriran.de: there are many people who long for spiritual development and they have an encounter with Rumi or Hafez, in the same time the Iranian government use poetries of Rumi and Hafez to attract all these people who are longing for a spiritual development. Do you have a message for these people?
Dr. Azmayesh: During 33 years it became very clear and obvious that the Iranian system, which is governing Iran, is using each pretext to play games with the mind of the people about its real intention. So everything, which comes from this system that is governing Iran with force and violation of the human rights, is worth being rejected. They are hiding themselves behind the name of Rumi, the Koran, Hafez, Islam etc. etc. It doesn’t have any legitimacy because it is coming from that side. Thus it is necessary not to listen to that side at all and to find the real presentation of the ideas of Rumi and Hafez and others by the persons who are following the path of Rumi and Hafez and others. They were Muslim mystics and we must look at people who are following the Muslim mysticism nowadays.
Photo: Dr. Azmayesh with an MEP (K. Lechner)
Source: mehriran.de